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	Comments on: Firmly I Believe and Truly CWB II 486	</title>
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	<description>Blogging Catholic Liturgical Music</description>
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		<title>
		By: Ines de E.		</title>
		<link>https://www.sixmaddens.org/firmly-i-believe-and-truly-cwb-ii-486/#comment-74461</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ines de E.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2023 15:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sixmaddens.org/?p=13150#comment-74461</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.sixmaddens.org/firmly-i-believe-and-truly-cwb-ii-486/#comment-65145&quot;&gt;Trish Etherton&lt;/a&gt;.

The problem is that both of your &quot;solutions&quot; destroy the rhyme scheme, and &quot;Spirit&quot; would also spoil the rhythm. There&#039;s absolutely no reason not to use &quot;Holy Ghost&quot;; in its original sense it means exactly the same as Spirit, taken from the German &quot;Geist&quot; which means that. The Germans still use &quot;der Heiliger Geist&quot;, why shouldn&#039;t we English speakers use &quot;Holy Ghost&quot;? I always have, as has everyone I grew up with.

Re: the &quot;I&quot; vs. &quot;we&quot;, the poem is taken from, if I remember correctly, the &quot;Dream of Gerontius&quot;, where the speaker is the Soul preparing for death, so the singular makes sense.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.sixmaddens.org/firmly-i-believe-and-truly-cwb-ii-486/#comment-65145">Trish Etherton</a>.</p>
<p>The problem is that both of your &#8220;solutions&#8221; destroy the rhyme scheme, and &#8220;Spirit&#8221; would also spoil the rhythm. There&#8217;s absolutely no reason not to use &#8220;Holy Ghost&#8221;; in its original sense it means exactly the same as Spirit, taken from the German &#8220;Geist&#8221; which means that. The Germans still use &#8220;der Heiliger Geist&#8221;, why shouldn&#8217;t we English speakers use &#8220;Holy Ghost&#8221;? I always have, as has everyone I grew up with.</p>
<p>Re: the &#8220;I&#8221; vs. &#8220;we&#8221;, the poem is taken from, if I remember correctly, the &#8220;Dream of Gerontius&#8221;, where the speaker is the Soul preparing for death, so the singular makes sense.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stefano		</title>
		<link>https://www.sixmaddens.org/firmly-i-believe-and-truly-cwb-ii-486/#comment-74459</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stefano]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2023 05:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sixmaddens.org/?p=13150#comment-74459</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.sixmaddens.org/firmly-i-believe-and-truly-cwb-ii-486/#comment-65145&quot;&gt;Trish Etherton&lt;/a&gt;.

&quot;doggerel&quot;? 
there is nothing clumsy or structurally incoherent about using &quot;I&quot;, especially since JH Newman was writing it from his heart to express HIS faith in Christ.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.sixmaddens.org/firmly-i-believe-and-truly-cwb-ii-486/#comment-65145">Trish Etherton</a>.</p>
<p>&#8220;doggerel&#8221;?<br />
there is nothing clumsy or structurally incoherent about using &#8220;I&#8221;, especially since JH Newman was writing it from his heart to express HIS faith in Christ.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stefano		</title>
		<link>https://www.sixmaddens.org/firmly-i-believe-and-truly-cwb-ii-486/#comment-74458</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stefano]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2023 05:40:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sixmaddens.org/?p=13150#comment-74458</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.sixmaddens.org/firmly-i-believe-and-truly-cwb-ii-486/#comment-69975&quot;&gt;Ines de E.&lt;/a&gt;.

I totally agree with your sentiment. At any one time there are people of true faith and those who have not yet true faith singing this hymn together - I feel these declarations should be a personal declaration to God. Others can do likewise and it&#039;s edifying that we&#039;re actually doing it together.
Yes, &quot;we&quot; is supposed to be a bonding exercise - but it can often be a tribal chant.
To me tribal chants are a thing of this fallen world we see with all the flag-waving and ultra nationalist sentiment which leads to all manner of exclusion]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.sixmaddens.org/firmly-i-believe-and-truly-cwb-ii-486/#comment-69975">Ines de E.</a>.</p>
<p>I totally agree with your sentiment. At any one time there are people of true faith and those who have not yet true faith singing this hymn together &#8211; I feel these declarations should be a personal declaration to God. Others can do likewise and it&#8217;s edifying that we&#8217;re actually doing it together.<br />
Yes, &#8220;we&#8221; is supposed to be a bonding exercise &#8211; but it can often be a tribal chant.<br />
To me tribal chants are a thing of this fallen world we see with all the flag-waving and ultra nationalist sentiment which leads to all manner of exclusion</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ines de E.		</title>
		<link>https://www.sixmaddens.org/firmly-i-believe-and-truly-cwb-ii-486/#comment-69975</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ines de E.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2020 21:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sixmaddens.org/?p=13150#comment-69975</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There&#039;s no reason that &quot;I&quot; shouldn&#039;t be used in a hymn... as Trish says, after all, the &quot;Credo&quot; is not the &quot;Credimus&quot; -- &quot;it&#039;s &lt;i&gt;I&lt;/i&gt; believe in God,&quot; not &quot;We,&quot; a personal profession of faith. Faith is a personal matter; we can only speak for ourselves in that. So singing about it in the same way makes total sense! :)

As to the tune, I actually didn&#039;t know this hymn until last year, but Drakes Broughton is the tune that went with it; I haven&#039;t yet found a really decent, fully sung youtube video with it, but it&#039;s a beautiful hymn. I prefer this tune to either of the others I&#039;ve heard with it. To each their own, though; I know there are hymns that have several (&quot;Faith of our Fathers&quot; is another I know at least three tunes for!)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s no reason that &#8220;I&#8221; shouldn&#8217;t be used in a hymn&#8230; as Trish says, after all, the &#8220;Credo&#8221; is not the &#8220;Credimus&#8221; &#8212; &#8220;it&#8217;s <i>I</i> believe in God,&#8221; not &#8220;We,&#8221; a personal profession of faith. Faith is a personal matter; we can only speak for ourselves in that. So singing about it in the same way makes total sense! 🙂</p>
<p>As to the tune, I actually didn&#8217;t know this hymn until last year, but Drakes Broughton is the tune that went with it; I haven&#8217;t yet found a really decent, fully sung youtube video with it, but it&#8217;s a beautiful hymn. I prefer this tune to either of the others I&#8217;ve heard with it. To each their own, though; I know there are hymns that have several (&#8220;Faith of our Fathers&#8221; is another I know at least three tunes for!)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris W		</title>
		<link>https://www.sixmaddens.org/firmly-i-believe-and-truly-cwb-ii-486/#comment-65154</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris W]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jun 2019 21:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sixmaddens.org/?p=13150#comment-65154</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I can remember singing this hymn to DRAKE&#039;S BROUGHTON many decades ago, and its the tune also used in the New Living Parish hymnal and original Catholic Worship Book.  The content of Hymnary.org (which I&#039;m presuming is your source for hymn tune usage)  is dominated by American non-Catholic hymnals which significantly biases against common use tunes in the rest of the world.  It is a reality, that many hymns have been sung over many decades to different tunes in Catholic and Protestant traditions as well as America and the rest of the world.  A well-known example of this is &quot;Away in a Manger&quot;.  Having said that, I agree with your comments about all the &quot;I&quot;s in this hymn making its use uncomfortable in liturgy.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can remember singing this hymn to DRAKE&#8217;S BROUGHTON many decades ago, and its the tune also used in the New Living Parish hymnal and original Catholic Worship Book.  The content of Hymnary.org (which I&#8217;m presuming is your source for hymn tune usage)  is dominated by American non-Catholic hymnals which significantly biases against common use tunes in the rest of the world.  It is a reality, that many hymns have been sung over many decades to different tunes in Catholic and Protestant traditions as well as America and the rest of the world.  A well-known example of this is &#8220;Away in a Manger&#8221;.  Having said that, I agree with your comments about all the &#8220;I&#8221;s in this hymn making its use uncomfortable in liturgy.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Trish Etherton		</title>
		<link>https://www.sixmaddens.org/firmly-i-believe-and-truly-cwb-ii-486/#comment-65145</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Trish Etherton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jun 2019 12:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sixmaddens.org/?p=13150#comment-65145</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It always surprises me that the words &quot;Holy Ghost&quot; in hymns have not been changed to &quot;Holy Spirit&quot;, and I always feel awkward singing &quot;Holy Ghost&quot;.  (Remember a few years ago when it was decided that we could no longer sing &quot;Yahweh&quot; and many hymns had the wording changed to suit this.  One song that comes to mind is &quot;Sing a New Song&quot;, but there were several others.)  I have seen a version of &quot;Firmly I Believe&quot; where the last line was changed to &quot;Father, Son and Spirit One&quot; - does it really matter, and is it even noticed, that &quot;One&quot; doesn&#039;t rhyme with &quot;host&quot;?!  &quot;Angelic throng&quot; probably works a little better??  I guess &quot;I&quot; could be substituted with &quot;we&quot;, but I quite like this song, and it feels like a very personal prayer.  After all, we still use the singular person in the Creed at Mass.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It always surprises me that the words &#8220;Holy Ghost&#8221; in hymns have not been changed to &#8220;Holy Spirit&#8221;, and I always feel awkward singing &#8220;Holy Ghost&#8221;.  (Remember a few years ago when it was decided that we could no longer sing &#8220;Yahweh&#8221; and many hymns had the wording changed to suit this.  One song that comes to mind is &#8220;Sing a New Song&#8221;, but there were several others.)  I have seen a version of &#8220;Firmly I Believe&#8221; where the last line was changed to &#8220;Father, Son and Spirit One&#8221; &#8211; does it really matter, and is it even noticed, that &#8220;One&#8221; doesn&#8217;t rhyme with &#8220;host&#8221;?!  &#8220;Angelic throng&#8221; probably works a little better??  I guess &#8220;I&#8221; could be substituted with &#8220;we&#8221;, but I quite like this song, and it feels like a very personal prayer.  After all, we still use the singular person in the Creed at Mass.</p>
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